Tulpa.info - guide-discussion

Sora Faux

> It's the Guides we were talking about though. All I can think to say to that is if you think the guides are bad, with the new system I'm trying to make you can report them. If that's not good enough, I highly recommend writing your own.

@A long kiss goodnight - jump I already said why introducing a new guide probably won't do much.

To be honest, the crap I mentioned above mostly comes just from the website alone, people are going to contract it before reading any guides. They are probably going to read info at https://www.tulpa.info/ first and then read guides that are mostly consistent with information provided there. Guides contradicting info at website might seem less trustworthy for them. Here in the live chat we can overcome it but in form of a guide, we are going to be on a lost position.

Oh, I see. I do think people value newer guide content, and new guides can become popular

You're a stronger being than I thought.

A long kiss goodnight

There you are! You are exactly the person I'm curious to hear your opinion about on the JDI section

the jdi what now?

"Just do it" guide section

11:44 PM

A section for JDI guides

HAHAHA love the name

Ranger wishes to create a section for a philosophy of guides, of which we got six last year and so far two this year.

11:45 PM

I think this is fundamentally too little guides to categorize.

11:45 PM

That's in total, by the way, not the ones he would categorize.

when people get the hang of tulpamancy they get into this 'why did it take me so long?'

11:45 PM

so they write 'just do it' guides to try to help their past self

Yes, usually while failing to understand what convinced them to relax into the process.

turns out these don't really work too effectively

R- it doesn't matter it doesn't work effectively. It matters that it sustains our working system.

it's such a thing done in post, like, 'oh why did i not get it? i must've not been "just doing it" hard enough' like usually slow starts to tulpamancy are caused by lack of understanding of what tulpamancy actually is and how it feels like imo

Mon

R- it doesn't matter it doesn't work effectively. It matters that it sustains our working system.

i have no idea what you're saying but work effectively = sustains a working system in my mind

11:48 PM

so your sentence makes no sense to me

"Just do it" conveys an understanding of a mindset that their past self did not have. It's a conclusion to their logic, not how they actually reached the end-point.

11:49 PM

I have been wary in the past of using that sort of thing myself specifically because I recognize just how extremely personal and difficult to replicate my own logic was, since I literally did all of this accidentally after sucking balls at it for so long. I had a revelatory moment that I can't just pass on.

yeah, good luck telling a person 'just do it'. like you're right, that's what they have to do, you're right, but... then they just ask 'do it how?!?!'... what do you say then??

11:50 PM

i have a theory 75% of slow starts are bc people don't know what to expect

I'm leaning toward that too. Poor expectation management. I'm increasingly think we should be starting people off with "Okay, so fuck all that magic tulpa bullshit. You're making an imaginary friend. If you don't want that, then you don't want the baseline premise. Away to fuck with you."

11:52 PM

And then slowly we go "Okay so if you want to feel your tulpa and see them with your eyes n shit..."

11:55 PM

The stuff that trips people up should be extracurricular to the baseline we posit; Because the baseline should be attainable within seconds by anyone who isn't aphantasic in theory.

11:56 PM

Perhaps, even, the sense of separation/realness/whatever else, which I don't think is necessarily core to whether a thoughtform is actually separate or autonomous. (edited)

I'm not so sure. I do think that if you tell people "tulpas are just imaginary friends", that can have an unintended negative consequences. Gray came to the forums because he wanted to understand why I was telling him I was real. If tulpamancers told him "tulpas are imaginary friends", he might snoop around until someone says "your tulpa isn't a real person", which would infuriate me. I have scared Gray before, and I probably would scare him again. I think people would just think I'm part of some mental illness or something. I don't think we would stick around for long, and then we run the risk of joining the OSDD/DID community, or Gray might buy into the idea he's psychotic (edited)

Imaginary friend doesn't necessarily mean a puppet.

3

When adults hear imaginary friend, what they think of is much closer to what a tulpa actually is than anything else that doesn't take a couple sentences to explain

I'm all right with imaginary friends as a description so long as you affix "on steroids" the end of it (edited)

2

and what exactly are those steroids?

You can observe what useless guides lead to in #tulpa-questions currently.

I don't think that tulpamancers having questions about in my opinion social insecurity makes guides useless, in my eyes it means another guide is needed to cover that area. Not all guides are general guides, you can have a guide as specific as a guide all about alleviating forcing anxiety

Anxiety is one thing but I feel that the urge of giving tulpa nothing but freedom is a consequence of nonsense that popular guides feed people with.

Your idea of freedom is very different from mine. I agree that a host shouldn't feel like they have zero control in their own mind, that's not healthy, but you don't have to tell a tulpa they're not allowed to feel upset

In this context we are talking about freedom to choose personality, I believe.

11:20 AM

Not decision-making.

when did I say that tulpas are not allowed to be upset? And it's not even about control. It's about being deadlocked by not being able to do anything because of tulpa's supposed absolute freedom.

I've personally seen guides that show not doing any personality forcing as being equal to doing it. I feel like this is a serious disservice. Especially to the unsuggestible. It sounds the most morally correct on paper, but it seriously detracts from tulpamancy. Tulpamancy is about filling in gaps and building up an impulsive thoughtform, but the brain doesn't fill in vacuums in the same way. (edited)

1

Sora Faux

when did I say that tulpas are not allowed to be upset? And it's not even about control. It's about being deadlocked by not being able to do anything because of tulpa's supposed absolute freedom.

Ah, I see where I made a mistake:

Let me be blunt in saying maximum freedom is not a good idea if you're prone to coming to this conclusion yourself. Your negativity will rub off on them. Instead imagine someone who's more positive with you who will better gel with your personality.

Would you give maximum freedom to your children in the formation of their identity? Would you let them be assholes to you and their friends? Would you refuse to teach them goodness?

I wrongly assumed Zen's definition of freedom matched yours. Here he states a tulpa should be made to be more positive than you, which I have mixed feelings about. I think disciplining children and having undesirable feelings are different things. (edited)

We teach children in a different manner to tulpas, it was intended to be a comparison about what you wouldn't allow.

I feel I have become vocal quite fast because despite being fed with nonsense from the guides (which in 2012 was probably even worse than atm), Felix already had an idea of a character I was supposed to be and in spite of the urge of giving me absolute freedom, he couldn't just think of me not being her.

Personality forcing is how we establish a tulpa's personality.

11:29 AM

Not teaching as you would a child.

I don't think the "orb tulpa" concept is a completely bad idea. I do agree that for some it doesn't help them and they need something like personality forcing to make progress, but for some the "orb tulpa" is all they need

I feel like what we really need in tulpamancy is straight up some sort of test for how suggestible and prone to easily making tulpas you are.

11:32 AM

And then from there we categorize the options.

11:32 AM

But even then, I actually think personality forcing innately makes better and more stable constructs.

11:32 AM

Better suited to life.

Zen

We teach children in a different manner to tulpas, it was intended to be a comparison about what you wouldn't allow.

Fair enough. I agree in boundaries, I just believe that there's a difference between feeling sad and acting out because you're sad. It's awkward because you can hear their thoughts and you're all up in their business & vice versa.

It may not be easier for everyone to make a personality-forced construct, but it results in less confusion by definition.

Can i just throw in my newbie exp with this community so far? I red some guides, came here, been reading all your conversations for past week(bcs one of the guides said exploring inf on topic is good), and now i am completely lost. Guides say basically "just do it, and do it whatever way you want", but that's apparently wrong, but you guys have so different opinions on everything regarding tulpas, despite sounding somehow reasonable. And also it seems differences highly depend on personality and life view, and i don't think "try until something work" approach as guides suggest is okay with me, so i think ill have to take a break and rethink what i want and which way before i do something wrong with my yet not vocal tulpa friend. I can see how just do it works for people - people do a lot of things without thinking too much, and thinking is what brings anxiety and such. Me for example needs to be 100% sure what im doing or im just stuck.

The reason tulpamancy works is because it relies on something called suggestion - This is the same thing that hypnotist use to mess with heads. The way suggestion works relies on relaxation and by filling in the blind-spots of cognition with what you expect. This isn't something you can be 100% sure of, because the whole point is that you're accepting it and letting it take its course. What people can't really agree on is how to get people to relax into it like that. How do you advise someone on how to gain a revelation? They're always going to be personal.

12:26 PM

The more you focus on really understanding tulpamancy, in many ways, the more you are failing to practice it. Upper thought and high cognition are the opposite of suggestion.

I said this in #tulpa-questions but I think it's relevant here too-

I think it's worth saying now just in case-

Keep in mind different tulpamancers have different ideas on how tulpamancy works. We don't all agree on what a tulpa is even. Advice comes from personal experience, which is different from system to system 

If you see conflicting advice, don't panic. Go ahead and pick which advice you like best (or first if you aren't sure) and try that. Worst case scenario, it doesn't work and you can try the other advice.

I still need to write the "how to read guides and advice" guide ;_; But I want to fix the guide system first! (edited)

When you say things like this it sounds like "I need to do [x reasonable thing]" "Let me solve world peace first!"

12:29 PM

Good luck, Ranger.

Genry_the_frog

Can i just throw in my newbie exp with this community so far? I red some guides, came here, been reading all your conversations for past week(bcs one of the guides said exploring inf on topic is good), and now i am completely lost. Guides say basically "just do it, and do it whatever way you want", but that's apparently wrong, but you guys have so different opinions on everything regarding tulpas, despite sounding somehow reasonable. And also it seems differences highly depend on personality and life view, and i don't think "try until something work" approach as guides suggest is okay with me, so i think ill have to take a break and rethink what i want and which way before i do something wrong with my yet not vocal tulpa friend. I can see how just do it works for people - people do a lot of things without thinking too much, and thinking is what brings anxiety and such. Me for example needs to be 100% sure what im doing or im just stuck.

You can't permanently screw up, because this is imagination and you can just hit the undo button once you know how. So it's good to have the confidence to plow ahead even if it means making a mistake or two. Fear is the mind killer, they say :P

Raptoir

You can't permanently screw up, because this is imagination and you can just hit the undo button once you know how. So it's good to have the confidence to plow ahead even if it means making a mistake or two. Fear is the mind killer, they say :P

Well again good if that's true, but that conflicts with a lot i heard here, so... Yep.

Zen

When you say things like this it sounds like "I need to do [x reasonable thing]" "Let me solve world peace first!"

I don't think the UpVote/Draft system is world piece, it's just an upgrade to the non-functioning GAT system. Whether or not it will actually make people happy is a different question, which by the way... I want your opinion on!!!

Genry_the_frog

Well again good if that's true, but that conflicts with a lot i heard here, so... Yep.

? I have not heard anyone here say you can permanently screw up tulpamancy.

Genry_the_frog

Well again good if that's true, but that conflicts with a lot i heard here, so... Yep.

Well the usual advice is to take all advice with a grain of salt and use your common sense to find what actually makes sense to you. Don't be gullible.

A long kiss goodnight

I don't think the UpVote/Draft system is world piece, it's just an upgrade to the non-functioning GAT system. Whether or not it will actually make people happy is a different question, which by the way... I want your opinion on!!!

That would require reading about a system I honestly have very little motivation to fix at this point. Not sure I've got it in me.

With the new system the highlights are

You can upvote guides
You can post directly in guides or drafts
You can report guides you think are bad advice

... And you think that last point is a good thing in the hands of the forum community?

12:47 PM

The GAT may not have been great, but they actually did represent a decent number of decent 'mancers, spurious beliefs or not. I do not really think that opening the floodgates to the metaphysics crowd in particular will exactly be functional... Let alone to rando newbies who think they're master mancers. What do you think your advice would have been on topics several years ago? I have exactly zero trust for the will of consensus on tulpamancy.

Zen

... And you think that last point is a good thing in the hands of the forum community?

Possibly, given this system. Popular vote alone doesn't determine if a guide gets moved to drafts or not:

This is the most active chat ever

A long kiss goodnight

Possibly, given this system. Popular vote alone doesn't determine if a guide gets moved to drafts or not:

I thought for a second that was the process of a law getting passed in the U.S

1

No, I made this flowchart to explain the Revision Request System

12:51 PM

This is part of the new UpVote/Draft system I'm outlining

I know, it just looked like it was pulled out of history class

Basically, if people report a guide and the staff overall thinks the report is unreasonable, the guide stays where it is

Yeah you guys have some democracy

This first section is a GAT.

Dream cafe is a dictatorship

the first two-three lines of your flowchart is just the GAT.

12:54 PM

Wait there's no any upvote segment here at all, this is just the GAT as it is.

12:54 PM

Am I misunderstanding?

This is just the review process

At what point does the review process come into play.

12:55 PM

This is the whole system

12:55 PM

The "RR System Process" is the Request Review Process

... so if a post is flagged for containing something spurious it must be reviewed by the GAT? (edited)

12:56 PM

You realize that's going to be all of them.

I do mention if the staff thinks a review is reasonable in the first place, but I don't have that defined yet

12:57 PM

If the guide breaks actual forum rules it just gets moved to drafts or deleted

That just brings us back to the issue of the GAT having too much authority.

12:57 PM

With more steps.

The problem with the last GAT was there was no way to take down "bad" guides. Now there is. It's not perfect because there's no dedicated GAT team

I was under the impression the reason the GAT was considered bad was because they effectively vetoed everything.

12:59 PM

Even things that were reasonable subjective things or symbolism.

Instead of a whole team that passes a yes/no judgement, what if you assembled a group of people who know their shit and each of them individually endorses their own selection of guides

I should point out there are rules for how staff members should review guides: (Mind the fact that these are sloppy)

Staff Review Guidelines

If a submission is reported to be problematic, the staff will review it and provide feedback. This post outlines guidelines staff members should follow when reviewing guides. If you would like to see more on the Request Review system as a whole, please go here (link).

While reviewing and responding to reported guides, the staff are expected to do the following:

+Apply moderation if the submission violates Tulpa.info's guidelines
+Focus on investigating the reported issue. If the guide is long, the majority of the guide may not be read
+State their position on the reported issue.
+Provide feedback on how to resolve the problem
+And abide by these guidelines, but can provide optional additional feedback on grammar, content, etc.
+Staff review sessions may take awhile. Given the staff has other duties, there is no set deadline for completing a review. If the staff is really busy, a review session could take months
+Staff are not expected to provide in-depth reviews on a submission's methods or claims but if they do, cannot hold a submission back unless the content is highly problematic. A guide method with weird or silly ideas should not be held back unless the guide is deemed satirical or breaks rules such as advocating self-harm.
+While staff can provide feedback on grammar and structure, this cannot hold back a guide unless the submission is hard to read. A gid wit bad formeting n speli errors can be **illejabule** and if stractur is like OMG!!! so bad bad :( distrectud it can be held back.

Raptoir

Instead of a whole team that passes a yes/no judgement, what if you assembled a group of people who know their shit and each of them individually endorses their own selection of guides

How often does the team change and how frequent are the endorsements?

1:01 PM

Also, how should guides already on the forums be stored?

Raptoir

Instead of a whole team that passes a yes/no judgement, what if you assembled a group of people who know their shit and each of them individually endorses their own selection of guides

That's not even my main issue: You seriously expect people who know their shit to want to trawl the guides to collect their actual suggestions?

1:02 PM

Rather than just throw out the one they used?

1:03 PM

That is a serious act of curation.

1:03 PM

I would politely reject that duty.